David George reduction in sanction

Hey,

 

To those saying it is right that he got a reduction in his sentence for assisting SAIDS, maybe you can fill us in on what assistance he provided. I have not seen the benefit of his assistance, no visible change in testing regime, no names of suppliers given, no additional busts. Maybe the peloton is clean since he got bust.

 

If he has materially assisted and changed the way SAIDS operates then fair play to him. Normally athletes that want to return to sport after an adverse analytical finding do have to submit to testing prior to returning. Has this process been followed?

 

Why did he apply for a two month reduction? What does he gain from it?

 

I have written to SAIDS and formally requested a detailed explanation as to how DG complied with the rule cited in the statement. This was post a twitter interaction with their account. @Edgartheathlete is my twitter handle.

 

I will let everybody know the outcome.

 

Cheers

Maybe he gave them a lead on Impey...

Interesting reading on biological passport and specifically the Tiernan-Locke case. Makes one wonder about Sky. http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/09/biological-passport-what-can-teams-learn-from-the-tiernan-locke-case/

Please do Stu....I see they wanted to communicate via pvt email channel...why though, shouldnt it be transparent.

Amen - apart from if the info is being used in a current investigation.

Other question is - why wait 22 months then decide to co-operate?

My guess is - he decided on a come back - found a race he wanted to do as part of said come back - realised he couldn't do it so decided to "suddenly do the right thing".

Crap thing about cheaters - once they've cheated it's tough to trust them.

Would you let a convicted fraudster do your books, a convicted pedophile work at your child's creche, a driver with multiple tickets/accidents drive your company vehicle?

EPO for me is an OUT OUT OUT drug - plenty other careers for dopers to follow - especially ones on the wrong side of 35 with zero prospects for being pro riders again.

there can never be just black or white, it's impossible. No matter where you draw the line in the sand guys will come up to it and get lumped in with the guys who were there in the first place.

"Only thing in the middle of the road is a white line and/or roadkill"

seems more of a warning shot from SAIDS saying that "hey, we got some scoop and will be busting more riders soon"

Yes I have and was only told this last week, instead of 4 gold medals at National track championship I now will be awarded a 5th in replacement off 1 of my 2 silvers medals. I would be quite willing trade all these medals for just 1 medal at world track champs next month - does not matter the color! Not particularly angry with Mr Short at the track championship event but I will never know if he was negative at SA road champs - he may have cost me the victory their a few months before track champs.

 

What does surprise me is why somebody would knowingly race on a stimulant. What even surprise me more is SAIDS cannot give an answer to certain product sold in RSA! Last week I sent them a email sighing a few product which I would like to know if legal or illegal - still no answer! One of the product I believe I was given in the Cycle tour goodie bag - Airmune. I was thinking of using it before traveling to Worlds in Manchester as I have a tendency to pick up "viruses / cold" on long haul flights.

 

I am not a doctor or a chemical engineer - personally I think the stimulant list is way too long and as Mr Short discovered, a product over the counter can land you with a 2 year ban. The drug list in my opinion should be not much longer than 10 items (we cannot even obey the Biblical 10 commandment) containing those items which definitely improve perform - EPO, Blood doping, Steroids etc

 

On the testing front, WADA need to design test (which can test beyond masking agents) for what they are trying to prevent sports people from using. For WADA / SAIDS to say caught because of a masking agent is almost a guilty as the sports person (my opinion) - design the test to catch the sports person for the drug not a masking agent! The test must be able to be good enough to test / see beyond a masking agent - yes easier said than done but is it impossible?

 

This morning I received this - So basically what looks OK to the sports person may not be OK. Not easy to be 100% clean! I don't think the defense of I was not trying to cheat will hold up.

"Dear Peter

Thank you for your query on Linctagon C, Airmune and Lifepak Nano. Please read my comments below carefully regarding the guidelines on the status of Linctagon C, Airmune and Lifepak Nano

Linctagon C, Airmune and Lifepak Nano are all classified as alternative products

We do not include Complementary/Homeopathic or Alternative Products/Medications/Ingredients/OTC or Sport Supplement Products/Substances on our database for the reasons below. However, I am able to provide you with guidelines on the status and use of the listed ingredients of the above-mentioned product

Please read my comments below very carefully.

We do not endorse the use of any Supplements Products/Substances and Complementary/Alternative Medications/Products/Ingredients as it does not adhere to a quality assurance programme and its use is not regulated. We will only give comment on its stated ingredients as companies that manufacture Supplement Products/Substances and Complementary/Alternative Medications/Products/Ingredients are not obliged to list all their ingredients on its packaging AND MAY INCLUDE PROHIBITED INGREDIENTS THAT ARE NOT LISTED. We only endorse and approve registered medicines and drugs as its use and ingredients are regulated by a central body, the Medicines Control Council.

The Institute does not endorse the efficacy (do what it claims to do) of a Supplement Products/Substances and/or Complementary/Alternative Products/Medications/Ingredients or Supplements. We can however comment on the listed ingredients of a Supplement Product/Substance and or a Complementary/Alternative Product/Medication./Ingredient and whether any of the ingredients or its metabolites fall on the 2014 List of Prohibited Substances in Sport.

The listed ingredients of Linctagon C, Airmune and Lifepak Nano does not fall on the 2014 List of Prohibited Substances.

In conclusion it is important that I communicate the following to you when you are considering using supplements:

There are no guarantees that a supplement is safe to use

You need to assess the need for you to use supplements

You need to assess the risk involved of using supplements

For further information on supplements I would also like to direct you to the Informed Sport website http://www.informed-sport.com/ for a list of supplement batches that are tested by that organisation.

This status recommendation is made on the current information supplied. Ingredients may change without notice. As a result you use these products at your OWN RISK (irrespective whether the ingredients are permitted) and individuals should approach the use of it with caution.

I have also attached our sports supplement position statement for your perusal

Herbalife Products

This consists of a wide range of products and falls into the Complementary/Homeopathic or Alternative Products/Medications/Ingredients/OTC or Sport Supplement Products/Substances category. If you can provide me with the names of the specific herbalife products as well as the individual links on the internet where I can find the listed ingredients, I can provide you with guidelines on its use.

FAHMY GALANT

General Manager"

Is SAIDS a family business?

Maybe this is why I believe the list should be about 10 items long. WADA / SAIDS I believe put way to much responsibility on the Athlete. Surely they should be testing all product available from Herbal teas available at the local grocer - to prescription drug? If they are not then to have such a comprehensive list of ban substance in "not fair" on the sports person. Is that "playing fair?"

yoh, from Icycling's post, taking any supplements not manufactured in an MCC facility is like playing Russian Roulette.

One basically needs to find out then from the MCC which manufacturers abroad's quality processes are recognised, if at all.

Maybe this is why I believe the list should be about 10 items long. WADA / SAIDS I believe put way to much responsibility on the Athlete. Surely they should be testing all product available from Herbal teas available at the local grocer - to prescription drug? If they are not then to have such a comprehensive list of ban substance in "not fair" on the sports person. Is that "playing fair?"

Correct, unless they research all products they will only be a reactive entity, and not pro-active.

This means that you may race a whole season with someone taking performance enhancing substances legally, purely because it has not been "proven illegal"

Seems this whole thing is a balls-up of mammoth proportions

This morning I received this - So basically what looks OK to the sports person may not be OK. Not easy to be 100% clean! I don't think the defense of I was not trying to cheat will hold up.

 

"Dear Peter

 

Thank you for your query on Linctagon C, Airmune and Lifepak Nano. Please read my comments below carefully regarding the guidelines on the status of Linctagon C, Airmune and Lifepak Nano

 

Linctagon C, Airmune and Lifepak Nano are all classified as alternative products

 

We do not include Complementary/Homeopathic or Alternative Products/Medications/Ingredients/OTC or Sport Supplement Products/Substances on our database for the reasons below. However, I am able to provide you with guidelines on the status and use of the listed ingredients of the above-mentioned product

 

Please read my comments below very carefully.

 

We do not endorse the use of any Supplements Products/Substances and Complementary/Alternative Medications/Products/Ingredients as it does not adhere to a quality assurance programme and its use is not regulated. We will only give comment on its stated ingredients as companies that manufacture Supplement Products/Substances and Complementary/Alternative Medications/Products/Ingredients are not obliged to list all their ingredients on its packaging AND MAY INCLUDE PROHIBITED INGREDIENTS THAT ARE NOT LISTED. We only endorse and approve registered medicines and drugs as its use and ingredients are regulated by a central body, the Medicines Control Council.

 

The Institute does not endorse the efficacy (do what it claims to do) of a Supplement Products/Substances and/or Complementary/Alternative Products/Medications/Ingredients or Supplements. We can however comment on the listed ingredients of a Supplement Product/Substance and or a Complementary/Alternative Product/Medication./Ingredient and whether any of the ingredients or its metabolites fall on the 2014 List of Prohibited Substances in Sport.

 

The listed ingredients of Linctagon C, Airmune and Lifepak Nano does not fall on the 2014 List of Prohibited Substances.

 

In conclusion it is important that I communicate the following to you when you are considering using supplements:

There are no guarantees that a supplement is safe to use

You need to assess the need for you to use supplements

You need to assess the risk involved of using supplements

For further information on supplements I would also like to direct you to the Informed Sport website http://www.informed-sport.com/ for a list of supplement batches that are tested by that organisation.

 

This status recommendation is made on the current information supplied. Ingredients may change without notice. As a result you use these products at your OWN RISK (irrespective whether the ingredients are permitted) and individuals should approach the use of it with caution.

 

I have also attached our sports supplement position statement for your perusal

 

Herbalife Products

This consists of a wide range of products and falls into the Complementary/Homeopathic or Alternative Products/Medications/Ingredients/OTC or Sport Supplement Products/Substances category. If you can provide me with the names of the specific herbalife products as well as the individual links on the internet where I can find the listed ingredients, I can provide you with guidelines on its use.

 

 

FAHMY GALANT

General Manager"

 

Similar to saying "Take it and if it comes up as a banned substance we will let you know when we bust you"

A simple YES NO would be so much easier

Sounds like SAIDS/WADA needs a reason to exist.  . I wonder if the  Sr. Vet from this years Attakwas that was suspended for 2 years cause his doctor gave him a fat loss pill can also ask for a reduction as he clearly only wanted to loose fat. (I stand to be corrected on the race)

M2C.

top 3 Karoo to coast 

Similar to saying "Take it and if it comes up as a banned substance we will let you know when we bust you"

A simple YES NO would be so much easier

Their hands are pretty tied - they cannot commit to anything in writing because it will effectively allow you an out if you are found guilty using a product they said was safe.

Nobody will ever get any response other than "we recommend not taking anything and we cannot guarantee anything. Good luck. Don't forget we are here to serve you and make the sport better for you".

Just another reason to hate dopers. Apart from knackering the sport we love they've made us "day to day" okes have to check what brand of toiler paper we use in case it has a fragrance that is banned. Triple farkers.

You guys are kidding right? Do you really think they must test every steak, pharmacist dispensing tray and all concotions made by every charlatan that ever dreamt up a booster?

What is the fixation on supplements? If there was a product that can prevent flu etc. - what would Discovery or the US government save by giving it out for free?

If they give a list and you get the newest stuff from Nepal, how must they keep up?

Fact is the supplement/ alternative medicine market is unregulated and not aimed at be accurate in claims or process. Take it and take risks.

You guys are kidding right? Do you really think they must test every steak, pharmacist dispensing tray and all concotions made by every charlatan that ever dreamt up a booster?

 

What is the fixation on supplements? If there was a product that can prevent flu etc. - what would Discovery or the US government save by giving it out for free?

 

If they give a list and you get the newest stuff from Nepal, how must they keep up?

 

Fact is the supplement/ alternative medicine market is unregulated and not aimed at be accurate in claims or process. Take it and take risks.

I would argue that WADA / SAIDS are kidding! Their list is so long yet certainly in cycling their very few items on the list that make a huge difference. But the list is that long as they have not designed test for that that really need to test for.

In recent time Contador served a 2 year ban for a substance which was hardly detectable in his blood. What WADA really needs is a test for blood doping - not a positive on a cover up. It in my opinion make WADA look incompetent.

Currently their is a NO Needle policy in place for Grand tour etc again because they have not designed a test for what they try to test and it's not a B12 injection!

So as Eldron "made us "day to day" okes have to check what brand of toiler paper we use in case it has a fragrance that is banned."

If I follow (likely I don't) you are saying that if a substance exist that is a true PE but they can't test for it, or they don't know that a lab developed it then it should be legal to use.

Blood doping (traditional method) is easily detected.

They have a really good test for blood doping - they can even tell if the blood you received was yours or not. If it's your own they can tell the difference between existing and "added" blood cells by the age of the cell.

It's all a bit chicken and egg. They can't be expected to be up to date on every official and homeopathic "medicine" available.

The strategy is:

1) Limit supplementation - I use two energy sources and a protein recovery drink. No muscle cramp/vo2booster/power increaser/diet pills/thermogenitc anything/energy increasers drugs etc.

2) Keep the supplements simple - as few multi syllabled marketing words on the label as possible. 100% whey protein without all the muscle chimp additives - energy with salts and electrolytes only. No super epic inspired mega drugs etc.

3) Buy from a reputable shop - I chose Dischem based on their attempts to comply.

4) Use a reputable brand - I use USN - this is a bit risky on my part but the price is right!

If I get done I'll have a clean conscience - thehub will rip me a new one though!

In my opinion - it's when youo start looking for that super pill to make you thinner or faster when the trouble comes in - thats when yoou start risking the ingestion of ephedrines/steroids/testosterone/illegals.

Keep it simple and you SHOULD be safeish.

In recent time Contador served a 2 year ban for a substance which was hardly detectable in his blood. What WADA really needs is a test for blood doping - not a positive on a cover up. It in my opinion make WADA look incompetent.
 

What I am ultimately saying is sports people who are NOT trying to cheat but want to look after their health by using thing like Multi Vitamin (lifepak Nano) / other items for example Airmune which help you not get sick while traveling may suddenly produce a positive test. Their name gets dragged through the mud / ban from sport for 2 years never to be trusted again etc. Is this really what WADA / SAIDS is job is? So where do you draw the line?

My argument is that their are too many substances on the list of which many have little or no effect (positive or negative) for sport (cycling) performance - yet they still on the list. I would like to think when I am competing I would always be negative as knowingly I would never take anything that maybe positive - but now as per the response by SAIDS this morning I cannot be sure. My solution would thus be reduce the list to those substances which are truly beneficial and not something you can buy over the counter at the local supermarket / chemist. You had to knowingly be cheating.

Otherwise SAIDS in this country need to make every product purchasable in RSA over the counter as Green or Red an added to the Cal count / Nutritional information block, but that request is naturally a very big request which no doubt SAIDS does not have the funding for as it would run into million thus an unreasonable request - turn it around make the testing / banned substance list reasonable!

The comparisons has been made to speeding in this thread - why do you see Camera signage up where they may do speed control! The law is not trying to make guilty people out of innocent / not aware/ negligent people. Thus the warning! WADA / SAIDS on the other hand seem to possible think differently!

They have a really good test for blood doping - they can even tell if the blood you received was yours or not. If it's your own they can tell the difference between existing and "added" blood cells by the age of the cell.

 

It's all a bit chicken and egg. They can't be expected to be up to date on every official and homeopathic "medicine" available.

 

The strategy is:

1) Limit supplementation - I use two energy sources and a protein recovery drink. No muscle cramp/vo2booster/power increaser/diet pills/thermogenitc anything/energy increasers drugs etc.

2) Keep the supplements simple - as few multi syllabled marketing words on the label as possible. 100% whey protein without all the muscle chimp additives - energy with salts and electrolytes only. No super epic inspired mega drugs etc.

3) Buy from a reputable shop - I chose Dischem based on their attempts to comply.

4) Use a reputable brand - I use USN - this is a bit risky on my part but the price is right!

 

If I get done I'll have a clean conscience - thehub will rip me a new one though!

 

In my opinion - it's when youo start looking for that super pill to make you thinner or faster when the trouble comes in - thats when yoou start risking the ingestion of ephedrines/steroids/testosterone/illegals.

 

Keep it simple and you SHOULD be safeish.

GIVE THAT MAN A BELLS!

So this seems to be the extent of the response we are getting from SAIDS....

http://www.drugfreesport.org.za/2014/09/david-george-two-month-reduction-in-sanction/

I would think that is not the most transparent statement I have seen. It is a lot like JZ hiding behind a SIU and ad hoc parliamentary committee. 

As participants in a sport we have the right to know why a athlete that should be serving a ban is no longer serving a ban.

So we are no closer to knowing the truth. Smoke and Mirrors.

I still wait for the response to my email.

cheers 

So this seems to be the extent of the response we are getting from SAIDS....

 

http://www.drugfreesport.org.za/2014/09/david-george-two-month-reduction-in-sanction/

 

I would think that is not the most transparent statement I have seen. It is a lot like JZ hiding behind a SIU and ad hoc parliamentary committee. 

 

As participants in a sport we have the right to know why a athlete that should be serving a ban is no longer serving a ban.

 

So we are no closer to knowing the truth. Smoke and Mirrors.

 

I still wait for the response to my email.

 

cheers

 

Gees surely as a professional athlete the responsibility lies firmly and squarely on you and what you chose to ingest. For the most part SAIDS is providing athletes with assistance and saying:

Right guys and gals, here's an up-to-date list of what you can and cannot take...if you are a bit confused send us the list of ingredients and we will check it out for you. Unfortunately SAIDS has come under massive attack for whatever the reasons may be and are not able to put their heads on a block, and unfortunately there is a massive Grey area because of this, but in my opinion you can't be half pregnant...you either are or you're not.

Now as the professional athlete, and if my balls were on the line, I would make 100% sure about everything I ingested and if I wasn't 100% I would throw it in the bin, I would pay a nutritionist to then double check just to make sure...

As for the DG saga, I honestly believe and it sounds like they had a pre-arrangement, in other words - Dave, walk away quietly, we'll reduce the sentence and offer the only plausible reason.

So this seems to be the extent of the response we are getting from SAIDS....

 

http://www.drugfreesport.org.za/2014/09/david-george-two-month-reduction-in-sanction/

 

I would think that is not the most transparent statement I have seen. It is a lot like JZ hiding behind a SIU and ad hoc parliamentary committee.

 

As participants in a sport we have the right to know why a athlete that should be serving a ban is no longer serving a ban.

 

So we are no closer to knowing the truth. Smoke and Mirrors.

 

I still wait for the response to my email.

 

cheers

Or perhaps let them know what else they are using

Gees surely as a professional athlete the responsibility lies firmly and squarely on you and what you chose to ingest. For the most part SAIDS is providing athletes with assistance and saying:

Right guys and gals, here's an up-to-date list of what you can and cannot take...if you are a bit confused send us the list of ingredients and we will check it out for you. Unfortunately SAIDS has come under massive attack for whatever the reasons may be and are not able to put their heads on a block, and unfortunately there is a massive Grey area because of this, but in my opinion you can't be half pregnant...you either are or you're not.

 

Now as the professional athlete, and if my balls were on the line, I would make 100% sure about everything I ingested and if I wasn't 100% I would throw it in the bin, I would pay a nutritionist to then double check just to make sure...

 

As for the DG saga, I honestly believe and it sounds like they had a pre-arrangement, in other words - Dave, walk away quietly, we'll reduce the sentence and offer the only plausible reason.

Please read the reply posted today SAIDS sent to myself - doing basically what you have stated. I am not a professional athlete - I am almost 42 years old but I like any other funrider with a CSA license (day license included - i.e. all Cape Argus Pick 'n Pay cyclist) can be subjected to a dope control. Regardless of your cycling capabilities your name will be dragged through the mud!