Cycling South Africa, Pedal Power Association reach agreement

and that is the exact mentality that has us top end cyclists doing the same thing ever weekend and why we don't have competitive top end cyclists staying in SA...

 

The only event attracting the real race snakes is the World Funride Champs - and they'll do the Tour de Boland or Cape Rouleur as an extended stay

We're not top end cyclists. We're big fish in a small pond here in the Western Cape.

I'd say that the only event attracting the real race snakes is Nationals. If Fun Rider World Champs is the epitome of racing in South Africa we are in quite a dire state. I reckon it's the other way round - the race snakes come to do TdB and stay on to do the CTCT...

And yet, we have a real South African team riding the Tour de France this year. Despite (or because of) the way cycling is run, we are still able to produce world class riders, managers, soigneurs etc. 

 

 

What still bothers me is that PPA is charging R35 for a day license where CSA have indicated that they only charge R6 per rider per event - where does the other R29 go? I tried asking on vleisboek but PPA gave such a haphazard answer, it wasn't really clear... pretty much dodging the question.

 

I Think you will find R6.00 goes to CSA and the R29 to the (Western) provincial association.

I have been following this CSA vs PPA thing for a while now, and while I initially felt 'yay, the underdog won' for PPA last year, I get the feeling (more and more) that PPA is just a business and are really just as bad as (if not worse) than the 'money grabbing' CSA. 

 

I have a membership to CSA (think it was like R120 for the year) and it gives me great benefits should I be involved in an accident or crash. PPA gives me a seeded group race number... and that's about it. Everything else comes at a premium, and even getting the discounted race entry fee, it's still a lot of money to enter the races available.

 

What still bothers me is that PPA is charging R35 for a day license where CSA have indicated that they only charge R6 per rider per event - where does the other R29 go? I tried asking on vleisboek but PPA gave such a haphazard answer, it wasn't really clear... pretty much dodging the question.

 

Ultimately, as I have come to realise, PPA is for the weekend warrior (because there are loads of them) and NOT for the racing snakes. PPA were good once upon a time, but they have become lazy (in my opinion) and, as an apparent club, do not cater for all their members' needs.

You are mistaken, so lets clear it up for you. R 6.00 is per rider that has a CSA licence Full race or social/club membership/licence. the R 35.00 is for riders taking part in a CSA sanctioned event that do not have a licence.

E.g. I pay my R 120.00 to CSA and every event organizer has to pay CSA R6.00 every time I take part in a CSA sanctioned event.

I do not pay my R 120.00 to CSA and the event organizer has to pay CSA R 35.00 every time I take part in a CSA sanctioned event.

You are mistaken, so lets clear it up for you. R 6.00 is per rider that has a CSA licence Full race or social/club membership/licence. the R 35.00 is for riders taking part in a CSA sanctioned event that do not have a licence.

 

E.g. I pay my R 120.00 to CSA and every event organizer has to pay CSA R6.00 every time I take part in a CSA sanctioned event.

 

I do not pay my R 120.00 to CSA and the event organizer has to pay CSA R 35.00 every time I take part in a CSA sanctioned event.

So, you enter a race as a non-csa member. The event organiser charges you R35 of which R6 goes to CSA (regardless of whether you are a CSA member or not)... what happens to the other R29 that the non-CSA member pays?

R35 goes to CSA as your day license (if you're not a CSA member).

The organiser pays R6 per rider, on top of that, also to CSA, to have the race sanctioned.

Edit: bits

When PPA were part of CSA before the “fall out” as a PPA member you also were part of the bigger CSA membership and your PPA anual membership was increased to cover your CSA membership which is now R120.00 (then I think PPA had it initially negotiated at R65.00) - did PPA every reduce their PPA anual membership fee after the “fall out”?

Possibly an accountant can look at the finical from years gone bye which I think maybe on the PPA web site to confirm what happened! Or is this just another case well PPA is a business?

PPA is a business, a non profit business. Get over it.

So, you enter a race as a non-csa member. The event organiser charges you R35 of which R35 goes to CSA (regardless of whether you are a CSA member or not)... what happens to the other R29 that the non-CSA member pays?

Fixed it for you. Corrected your math and editted out the confusion

PPA is a business, a non profit business. Get over it.

Having 20 million in the “bank” and claim to be a non profit organisation does not sit well with me and a lot of other people!

If you have DSTV do yourself a favour and listen to this weeks Business day TV channel 412 episode of Straight talk with Mark Barnes and how he concludes / their a lot off parallels between this and PPA / cycling if you choose to open your eyes and see them. Not all people think like you and not all people think like me!

get over it. Its not your money. Its not our money, It belongs to the organisation. All they are accountable for is how the money is utilised to fullfil the orgs mandate. Somehow you have the idea we are shareholders in PPA. You're very mistaken if you do. We, the members, are beneficiaries, therefore we are not entitled to it. Its a bit like  insurance.

As long as the money is not being used for a fire pool, or security upgrades at the GM's or EXCO's homes, or flashy new bikes for the EXCO then its up to us as members to come up with good solid business proposals on how that money can be put to good use. If there is suddenly a tabled proposal to pay the money out to trusts or organisations then I want full traceability on that cash.

They're spending it wisely on MTB trails. Sure I'd like to see some good business plans for development teams, schoools cycling educatin programmes and maybe even a overhaul of the EXCO and Office org structures ,etc but its up to me and you and others like us to come up with responsible ways to spend that cash. That was always the intent, including a slush fund for legal cases.

CSA must raise its own money through responsile management. That has not been demonstrated to date. Besides, how incompetent must you be to go knocking on a subsidriaries door looking for a handout. Imagine Porsche has to ask VW for a bail out........eish

I'll watch the episode on 412

Having 20 million in the “bank” and claim to be a non profit organisation does not sit well with me and a lot of other people!...............

The PPA is currently inviting requests for project funding (before 25 March). Put together a well motivated project and see if you can get them to spend some money where you want to see it go. I know people who did so successfully. There is no restriction on who may apply for funding, even CSA can apply. Only thing they don't do is to fund individuals. Give it a go!

How much to build a 10km circular stretch of road.... .just for roadies...then charge us to ride there....with a bike shop...coffee shop ...beer shop...????????????

Fixed it for you. Corrected your math and editted out the confusion

Then explain this excerpt from a CSA email;

The process of sanctioning with Cycling South Africa is a pretty simple process. Yes, there is a nominal fee of R6.00 per rider associated to this. The Pedal Power Association, furthermore, state that they are liable for R35 per rider day license fee over all 35,000 entrants. This is not correct. We fail to understand why they continually make this statement, as it is not Pedal Power Association that is liable for this amount.

I don't see the broader context of what is being said there. That is just an exerpt

I have been following this CSA vs PPA thing for a while now, and while I initially felt 'yay, the underdog won' for PPA last year, I get the feeling (more and more) that PPA is just a business and are really just as bad as (if not worse) than the 'money grabbing' CSA. 

 

I have a membership to CSA (think it was like R120 for the year) and it gives me great benefits should I be involved in an accident or crash. PPA gives me a seeded group race number... and that's about it. Everything else comes at a premium, and even getting the discounted race entry fee, it's still a lot of money to enter the races available.

 

What still bothers me is that PPA is charging R35 for a day license where CSA have indicated that they only charge R6 per rider per event - where does the other R29 go? I tried asking on vleisboek but PPA gave such a haphazard answer, it wasn't really clear... pretty much dodging the question.

 

Ultimately, as I have come to realise, PPA is for the weekend warrior (because there are loads of them) and NOT for the racing snakes. PPA were good once upon a time, but they have become lazy (in my opinion) and, as an apparent club, do not cater for all their members' needs.

So, you enter a race as a non-csa member. The event organiser charges you R35 of which R6 goes to CSA (regardless of whether you are a CSA member or not)... what happens to the other R29 that the non-CSA member pays?

Then explain this excerpt from a CSA email;

 

The process of sanctioning with Cycling South Africa is a pretty simple process. Yes, there is a nominal fee of R6.00 per rider associated to this. The Pedal Power Association, furthermore, state that they are liable for R35 per rider day license fee over all 35,000 entrants. This is not correct. We fail to understand why they continually make this statement, as it is not Pedal Power Association that is liable for this amount.

For a clever guy you are really battling here.

There are various levels of fee that CSA charge.

Licences

Come in 2 flavours for non pro riders, Annual at R120 or day at R35 per day per event.

Every rider who rides in a CSA sanctioned event has to have this licence.

So in your excerpt from CSA, as CTCT had not charged the entrants the day licence fee when the entries for World Funride Champs were paid, CTCT would be liable for this amount in order to get CSA sanctioning.

Day fees

CSA charges the event organiser a day fee of either R6 or R10 per day per rider.  I have no idea which events pay R6 and which events pay R10.  This is a levy on the organiser for the CSA sanctioning.

Calendar fees

CSA charges the event organiser to list the event in the CSA calendar as a sanctioned event. I believe the minimum amount here is R5,000.

Commissaire fees

The race organiser pays set fees to have CSA officials oversee the event, including travel, accommodation and grub.

Prize money

Not an event organiser fee this but every winner is obliged to pay a portion of his or her winnings to CSA for the privilege of being allowed to win a sanctioned event.

Make of the press releases what you will, these are the fees required to be paid.

How about just some signage along popular routes with beware of cycles or stay wider of the rider!!! I see signs for leapod toad / horse riders / walkers - where do we see sign along Muizemberg main road to Fishhoek or say for example Tokai forest for cyclist?

When I was in Klerksdorp about 5 years ago their were massive sign (about 3m x 2m they looked quite old even then)  along training routes used by cyclist, slogans like caution future Springbok cyclist in training and some current ones - I assume these were commissioned by the other body which some people believe do nothing for the cycling masses.

In past years the advert in the Cape Argus giving guide lines for project funding deliberately excluded any form of competitive cycling - well thats the way I read it. I wonder if the advert will change for this year!

 

Those electronic signs along the freeways that gives you the heads up of an accident or now warning you of drinking and driving etc....could also be utilised in educating drivers about the one meter law as well as the Stay Wider of the Rider campaign. ..PPA should look into this..

 Edit: Seriously off topic for this thread, but I guess it's appropriate to highlight safety on a CSA thread...

How about just some signage along popular routes with beware of cycles or stay wider of the rider!!! I see sign for leapod toad / horse riders / walkers - where do we see sign along Muizemberg main road to Fishhoek or say for example Tokai forest for cyclist?
 

Those electronic signs along the freeways that gives you the heads up of an accident or now warning you of drinking and driving etc....could also be utilised in educating drivers about the one meter law as well as the Stay Wider of the Rider campaign. ..PPA should look into this..

Lobbying for all of the above. Sick of the standard email response:

Dear Mr Booth

TCT: Cyclist Safety needs- Pre Argus Cycle tour

The Office of The Executive Mayor, hereby wishes to acknowledge receipt of your correspondence dated 18 February 2015.

Kindly note; your correspondence is receiving the necessary attention.

Please be advised, this office will revert to you in due course. Please quote our reference number #### in all future correspondence.


Kind regards
 

For a clever guy you are really battling here. What made you say this?

There are various levels of fee that CSA charge vs what PPA charge

 

Licences

Come in 2 flavours for non pro riders, Annual at R120 or day at R35 per day per event.

Every rider who rides in a CSA sanctioned event has to have this licence.

 

if you are a non ppa member be prepared to pay up to R200 extra for some events

 

 

Day fees

CSA charges the event organiser a day fee of either R6 or R10 per day per rider.  I have no idea which events pay R6 and which events pay R10.  This is a levy on the organiser for the CSA sanctioning.

PPA charge the organiser R25 per rider to be timed

 

Calendar fees

CSA charges the event organiser to list the event in the CSA calendar as a sanctioned event. I believe the minimum amount here is R5,000  1 nought too many

PPA use to charge R2 000 for the event to be on the calendar and R9 000 to use their equipment - that was a few years ago - it must have increased since then

 

Commissaire fees

The race organiser pays set fees to have CSA officials oversee the event, including travel, accommodation and grub.

use the locals - no travel , no accomodation , no grub

 

Prize money

Not an event organiser fee this but every winner is obliged to pay a portion of his or her winnings to CSA for the privilege of being allowed to win a sanctioned event.

so that is why the PPA dont pay prize money

 

oh ja , keep up the good work you are doing at the ppa for the safe ride campaign - i love it

does Cav know the argus is now sanctioned?

Looks like for 2016 i'll be taking out day licenses until after the Fun ride World Champs, will work out more expensive but no ban or event suspensions.

With a little bit of reading and research, I found that you can still race all the CSA and PPA races without being penalised.

From the CSA website:

Please note that the UCI rule 1.2.019 pertaining to Forbidden races only applies to Full Racing Licence holders and not to those cyclists that hold a general Cycling South Africa membership. http://www.cyclingsa.com/news-and-press/2015/2/18/clarity-of-uci-rule-12019-forbidden-races-and-csa-general-membership

Only if you have a full racing license are you banned from riding.

If you purchase just a membership, you can still race everything and avoid the R35 day licence fee:

From the CSA website again:

A member is allowed to participate in a national series event, but will not be eligible for national or provincial selection. http://www.cyclingsa.com/membership/

For most cyclists, the prospects of being called up to represent SA in an international race is pretty slim.

I stressed a bit about having SA XCO Champs as my main racing goal for the year and then having pretty much no races to race (on the CSA calender in the Western Cape, most months have no races listed).

I will now be purchasing just a CSA membership, will race all the PPA and Dirtopia races and still aim for Sub-Vets title at SA's. I will unfortunately no longer be able to race the British XCO #3 & #4 in June when I am over there though, as you need an International Racing Licence to participate :-(

This does however suck pretty badly for the top guys wanting to race World Cups and World Champs.